I like your approach , Bro. We have to look every little detail to win. But why bother with rng? There is plenty of “normall” wheels around.
You need the good features of a ‘borderline’ personality to go this far. With that I say that some people go more far then anybody else. Not only with roulette but with more facets of life. It’s ‘a never give up mentality’ typical to some individuals. The flipside of the coin is that people wired like this, may have a hard time to accept being defeated.
Included in this part of this manual is a systematic method of investment designed for the game of roulette, a genuine and playable system which has been developed from the perspective of a winning mindset, and one which will demonstrate to the user, a tangible example of the theories discussed in this manual. Which is better, video roulette or table roulette? Both versions of the game have their pros and cons, and this post covers all of them.
Now back to what AZplayer said about ‘PLAY & PAY MODE or RECOVERY MODE’. This is an interesting concept.
Rng is sett to take your money. According to the low, it’s just required to give some fixed persentage back. During day/week it’s collecting money to pay rent for a shop owner/ casino, during evening/ weekend it may give some back… you need to track other players to see when is pay time . Qwestion is why to bother, unless you don’t have other opportunities to play. Same amount of traking or less gonna be more profitable on real wheel. Levels of control are not comparable as well.
On real wheel is all in front of you, on Rng you pray to be right.
Flag to the hands of heroes, but why bother to be a hero if( unless) it is not required to winn.
Situation with Rng players makes me think about idealistic woriors of the past. Everything for the kiss to hand of lady luck. But don’t it make more sense to just fuck a bitch instead?
On real wheel is all in front of you, on Rng you pray to be right.
Flag to the hands of heroes, but why bother to be a hero if( unless) it is not required to winn.
Situation with Rng players makes me think about idealistic woriors of the past. Everything for the kiss to hand of lady luck. But don’t it make more sense to just fuck a bitch instead?
Thread Rating:
12 votes (40%) | |
8 votes (26.66%) | |
3 votes (10%) | |
3 votes (10%) | |
3 votes (10%) | |
No votes (0%) | |
12 votes (40%) | |
No votes (0%) | |
No votes (0%) | |
No votes (0%) |
30 members have voted
darkoz
You can see how interblock is upset at the mere suggestion of gaffed wheels how the disclosure of mr s data would be even more damaging and suggestive
TomG
Can't there be a way to prevent wheel clocking while still keeping the game random?
Anytime the game feels 'threatened,' it just gives the wheel an extra kick mid-spin (like tapping the gas pedal on your car). To almost anyone playing the game, it would pass every test for randomness.
Only someone who would otherwise be able to beat the game would now find themselves facing something other than a 5.3% house edge. Everyone else (including Mike during his testing) would just be betting on a seemingly completely fair wheel.
Normally a topic I wouldn't pay much attention to, but considering the source it does become an interesting topic to look into a discuss.
-----
I have found something I truly believe to be a 'gaffe' somewhat similar to what's being discussed here. Except it can actually be used to the players advantage to reduce the house edge
Anytime the game feels 'threatened,' it just gives the wheel an extra kick mid-spin (like tapping the gas pedal on your car). To almost anyone playing the game, it would pass every test for randomness.
Only someone who would otherwise be able to beat the game would now find themselves facing something other than a 5.3% house edge. Everyone else (including Mike during his testing) would just be betting on a seemingly completely fair wheel.
Normally a topic I wouldn't pay much attention to, but considering the source it does become an interesting topic to look into a discuss.
-----
I have found something I truly believe to be a 'gaffe' somewhat similar to what's being discussed here. Except it can actually be used to the players advantage to reduce the house edge
Paigowdan
You can see how interblock is upset at the mere suggestion of gaffed wheels how the disclosure of mr s data would be even more damaging and suggestive
They may be.
They shouldn't have motor-controlled and sensed wheels responding to players' bets - that is, 'if they do' - when they can have air gun-pushed wheels with no magnetic sensors on them, and non-interfering cameras on them to track spin results. This is the honest answer to automated roulette!
If you mix casino wheel speed control, and player bet size tracking, then the casino or manufacturer themselves will gaffe the results, - in a claimed innocent attempt to 'eliminate AP' when they are now committing it themselves! That is NOT how you do it.....
The magnets or motors on the wheels can both detect and also control speed - faster or slower - the speed of the wheel, based on whether they are 'reading' a wheel, or 'pushing or slowing' a wheel, by reading the magnet, or by applying pulses to the magnet - like a motor.
By having just an air gun type pusher on the wheel, to free spin and accelerate the wheel, - and just having optical sensors to read the wheel - then no magnetic or motor influence can possibly be applied to affect the wheel.
This could have been done.
On regular Table Game wheels, there are no motors or magnets, just an optical non-magnetic reader to read the wheel without any influence occurring, - to update the tote board of spin results for the dealer and players. There, it is a free-spinning wheel without possible influence.
An optical wheel reader can resolve all numbers spun - and bets made on a dis-attached computer system to resolve bets without influence by the house. The bet resolver does not have to be attached to 'wheel control' - to know what the players had bet and what they should be paid per spin. It 'can' be mis-used to gaffe the wheel speed, which is the same 'speed tacking crime' that the AP players are using, but in the guilty casino's electronic hands now.
Because on electric machines, where the wheel is propelled by an electro-magnet motor - the same motor can also control and slow down the wheel mid-spin.
If the wheel were pushed by a mechanical or air gun arm, there would be no motors or magnets attached onto the wheel - which can also control wheel position and speed in relation to the bets made, - to 'fix outcomes.'
The wheel is supposed to spin freely without any further or possible electronic manipulation, mid-round or mid-spin, from the point the ball is release into its groove. If late bets are a player-clocking issue, then close the betting off in an earlier point, much in the way a dice dealing stickman accepts no late bets after the dice are out, and cannot be booked without the late bets set up.
It may cost a few hands or spins an hour - but there would be no fraud possible.
Counter-Gaffing the wheel against AP players is a gaffe itself by the manufacturer themselves! Removing late bets, and having a natural, unbiased and natural wheel with no late bets OR wheel influence is the answer. It'll cost a few later bets per hour - but that was the problem all long.
This should be done.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Mar 30, 2017
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
onenickelmiracle
If the game should be beatable, but it's not being beaten at all, that would be the proof. If it's being beaten, there's proof the game isn't gaffed. There would be security surveillance watching the players as a countermeasure, which would be the perfect response whether it's gaffed or not. The employee didn't say that though. Seems reasonable the only way to protect a roulette wheel would be by looking at the players and bets, then not allowing gamblers who pose a risk. Maybe they didn't think to put on a charade to conceal a gaffe, if there is a gaffe.
The way I understand the accusation, if a player is trying to game the machine, the machine reverts to a computerized rng to land the ball, but if the bets don't scare the machines, gravity and the loss of momentum are allowed to do their thing, because the assumed hold is safe. Are people being asked to leave and no longer play roulette or is everyone welcome, is the question.
The way I understand the accusation, if a player is trying to game the machine, the machine reverts to a computerized rng to land the ball, but if the bets don't scare the machines, gravity and the loss of momentum are allowed to do their thing, because the assumed hold is safe. Are people being asked to leave and no longer play roulette or is everyone welcome, is the question.
DiscreteMaths2
Can't there be a way to prevent wheel clocking while still keeping the game random?
Anytime the game feels 'threatened,' it just gives the wheel an extra kick mid-spin (like tapping the gas pedal on your car). To almost anyone playing the game, it would pass every test for randomness.
Anytime the game feels 'threatened,' it just gives the wheel an extra kick mid-spin (like tapping the gas pedal on your car). To almost anyone playing the game, it would pass every test for randomness.
This is my thought as well. Although for me it stems from a position of ignorance of not knowing what exactly about a roulette wheel makes it behave sufficiently random for gambling purposes.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
PaigowdanThanks for this post from:
If the game should be beatable, but it's not being beaten at all, that would be the proof.
Another question might be, - are these roulette machines being seriously played in comparison to the tables, - so we can tell?
I have returned to dealing at Fiesta H. (on the late night/overnight shift), - and the Interblock roulette wheel machine (a competitor) seems absolutely untouched. Been back six weeks there, and I haven't seen a single player on it late night/early morning touch it. I have seen and dealt some good overnight 'real table' roulette, BJ, PGP, and crap table action, even UTH at 4AM. I know during the overnight hours it is absolutely untouched, and I would assume the monthly lease is in the thousands, may high hundreds. The thing is considerably larger than a Lincoln Continental, and it is silent all the time. The thing is the size of a four-table pit, and it is always dead. I believe it may be under the slot department. I KNOW it is not under the table games department, personnel-wise. I do not think our TGD would lease such a thing.
Quote: oneniklemiracle
If it's being beaten, there's proof the game isn't gaffed.
No. It can be beaten and gaffed at the same time, just one party doing a lousier (or better) job of it..
But I don't think we can tell from the results at a few locals casinos or a gagged, hinted to issue. It would take at least some action and clean review to determine that, and those numbers, if greater than zero, are in the Slot Manager's/Table Games Shift Manager's office, and I assume, also under a corporate gag order, clearly. The gag order might be under the product removal notice, too, for all we know.
There would be security surveillance watching the players as a countermeasure, which would be the perfect response whether it's gaffed or not.
I've never seen anyone notice it, no less play it. If it were noticed, someone might put an IV drip on it and say a Rosary or something. A White elephant walk-around feature on the floor if there ever was one, simply a huge ghost presence. It even has a four-spin football-like 'touchdown bet' on it, as we can see in the pit from its flashing adverts. Probably costs more in electrical usage in its idle time than it sees in daily table game drop. I think its numbers may fall under the slot department, if not through the floor. Maybe I can't say this, I'll have to ask some swing shift workers I tap off games getting in tonight if anyone plays it, coming on duty. I'll do this tonight (actually Friday morning overnight). We also had the automatic 'automat' electronic poker table, and the bubble crap machine, which also had no action, and came and went.
Quote: ONM
Seems reasonable the only way to protect a roulette wheel would be by looking at the players and bets, then not allowing gamblers who pose a risk. Maybe they didn't think to put on a charade to conceal a gaffe, if there is a gaffe.
In terms of game protection,
1. You'd need to have some action in order to have some back-offs, and;
2. there's no way to past-post ('cap'), pinch, or color-change active bets on an electronic machine, but again, that assumes the machine thing gets action, and besides, we've seen little (none, actually) of that in the pit.
3. Back-offs on roulette are EXTREMELY rare, and mostly alcohol-related/public disturbance in nature. Capping and pinching, and past-posting bets are generally felonies, and when caught, are not in the normal AP/card-counting category.
The way I understand the accusation, if a player is trying to game the machine, the machine reverts to a computerized rng to land the ball, but if the bets don't scare the machines, gravity and the loss of momentum are allowed to do their thing, because the assumed hold is safe.
Ah....so it doesn't go into Cheating mode unless, of course, it feels threatened or cheated itself, and by a computer algorithm written by a paranoid programmer. I get it.
If so, the machine is alive - and in the worst of ways.
One would think a legitimate casino product wouldn't have such a mode, the 'Justified Counter-Cheating' maneuver/mode. Okay, now I've seen everything, and the cyborg Arnold Schwarzenegger Sci-Fi movies now make sense to me.
Seriously, if a commercial gaming product has ANY sort of a cheating mode, it cannot be justified as a mere counter-cheating defense at all. A machine is either clean, or it is gaffed, which would be a VERY serious scenario for a gaming product.
Quote: ONM
Are people being asked to leave and no longer play roulette or is everyone welcome, is the question.
No. The machine, if it gets any action, just has people play on it, which is rare, and which I have yet to see, and I work in a casino right next to such a machine.
No one would get backed off, - I suppose that they'd just lose, and then leave, if they did play the thing. I have yet to see a hand-pay on that thing, no less a player.
Edit: I'll play the roulette machine Friday or Saturday.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DiscreteMaths2
They aren't very popular machines. But they do get some action, mostly in places where the cheapest Roulette table in town is $10+ or its a location with no live table games.Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
Paigowdan
Maybe so.But at our house, with live tables of a minimum bet of $3 and a limit of $1,000, it's only the actual table game that gets the roulette action.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
onenickelmiracle
Quote: ONM
Seems reasonable the only way to protect a roulette wheel would be by looking at the players and bets, then not allowing gamblers who pose a risk. Maybe they didn't think to put on a charade to conceal a gaffe, if there is a gaffe.
In terms of game protection,
1. You'd need to have some action in order to have some back-offs, and;
2. there's no way to past-post ('cap'), pinch, or color-change active bets on an electronic machine, but again, that assumes the machine thing gets action, and besides, we've seen little (none, actually) of that in the pit.
3. Back-offs on roulette are EXTREMELY rare, and mostly alcohol-related/public disturbance in nature. Capping and pinching, and past-posting bets are generally felonies, and when caught, are not in the normal AP/card-counting category.
Copied and pasted the above.
I meant if someone was skillful to visually predict the outcome, the casino would not want them to play. When I wrote about the bets, I meant the bets always coming in late and were skillful. Obviously people will bet late just randomly and also not skillful predictions, they'll keep them.
Also, late night playing might not mean much. If people were to want to play this to make money, they might want day hours and to blend into a crowd. If someone was beating it, playing 24 hours a day might be a flag to the casino. Maybe nobody is playing during the day, beats me.
My understanding of the threatened mode didn't make sense in practicality. Yes it wouldn't work, because it would just seem weird by the way the ball moved and landed. Sounds more like a fake-out, where the ball appears to want to land somewhere, but doesn't, allegedly. I don't really believe it, just suspicious and can understand how a casino could use its power when when vulnerable, and not think anything of it. I've seen it on must hits being the worst paying slots in casinos, not much of a guarantee, so Machiavellian.
Seems reasonable the only way to protect a roulette wheel would be by looking at the players and bets, then not allowing gamblers who pose a risk. Maybe they didn't think to put on a charade to conceal a gaffe, if there is a gaffe.
In terms of game protection,
1. You'd need to have some action in order to have some back-offs, and;
2. there's no way to past-post ('cap'), pinch, or color-change active bets on an electronic machine, but again, that assumes the machine thing gets action, and besides, we've seen little (none, actually) of that in the pit.
3. Back-offs on roulette are EXTREMELY rare, and mostly alcohol-related/public disturbance in nature. Capping and pinching, and past-posting bets are generally felonies, and when caught, are not in the normal AP/card-counting category.
Copied and pasted the above.
I meant if someone was skillful to visually predict the outcome, the casino would not want them to play. When I wrote about the bets, I meant the bets always coming in late and were skillful. Obviously people will bet late just randomly and also not skillful predictions, they'll keep them.
Also, late night playing might not mean much. If people were to want to play this to make money, they might want day hours and to blend into a crowd. If someone was beating it, playing 24 hours a day might be a flag to the casino. Maybe nobody is playing during the day, beats me.
My understanding of the threatened mode didn't make sense in practicality. Yes it wouldn't work, because it would just seem weird by the way the ball moved and landed. Sounds more like a fake-out, where the ball appears to want to land somewhere, but doesn't, allegedly. I don't really believe it, just suspicious and can understand how a casino could use its power when when vulnerable, and not think anything of it. I've seen it on must hits being the worst paying slots in casinos, not much of a guarantee, so Machiavellian.
Paigowdan
I meant if someone was skillful to visually predict the outcome, the casino would not want them to play. When I wrote about the bets, I meant the bets always coming in late and were skillful. Obviously people will bet late just randomly and also not skillful predictions, they'll keep them.
True - but the threat of AP players, (and not the simple late bettors), combined with the fact that the motorized wheel is continuously controlable under computer control, results in a scenario where they may have, or actually had, taken away the truly free spinning wheel motion to where they are adjusting the speed to deliberately steer it away from big bets.
Even if partially done and partially successful, the very presence of this possible wheel control action or feature (or its attempt to do so) makes the wheel biased and controlled against some of the bigger players' bets. The fact that small bettors or early bettors don't undergo these attempts at 'wheel control' on them doesn't change the fact that some wheel control attempts are present in certain cases.
If a gaffe is present intermittently, it is still present and attempted. It is like a magnet under a crap table using magnetic dice: if it is only used against some big players some of the time, it is still used as game influence. None is acceptable, and any use is unacceptable, in terms of having an on-the-level clean game.
I totally understand a game designer/manufacturer wanting to have an AP-proof game, but a casino house or manufacturer using AP (wheel timing) against an AP player (a wheel clocker who may be timing the wheel) is committing exactly the same despised action, if it is done. A motorized wheel is a controllable wheel, and if the wheel is controlled after betting is closed to respond to a big player's bet size, it's a gaffed wheel.
Quote: ONM
Also, late night playing might not mean much. If people were to want to play this to make money, they might want day hours and to blend into a crowd. If someone was beating it, playing 24 hours a day might be a flag to the casino. Maybe nobody is playing during the day, beats me.
True. It may get enough action to be viable at various places. Certainly depends on the house and the local acceptance of the device. Some places may have action on it. Some places it is fairly dead.
My understanding of the threatened mode didn't make sense in practicality. Yes it wouldn't work, because it would just seem weird by the way the ball moved and landed. Sounds more like a fake-out, where the ball appears to want to land somewhere, but doesn't, allegedly. I don't really believe it, just suspicious and can understand how a casino could use its power when when vulnerable, and not think anything of it. I've seen it on must hits being the worst paying slots in casinos, not much of a guarantee, so Machiavellian.
It may often fail. And it would/could be so subtle as to not be noticed by 'biological units,' or human beings, who can't detect the minor but possibly significant speed changes by the human eye in play. It wouldn't look weird, necessarily. It would look unnoticed, as just another ball drop into a pocket.
It is the attempts at it, and that it might work, that is troubling. It is when the casino house or designer is using speed changing techniques after the close of betting that is serious; imagine a wheel clocking player being able to control and brake a roulette wheel towards his bets unnoticed, or his attempts at it. Then image the house doing this, the very same thing. Who is allowed to do this by gaming? I say neither.
A controlled wheel that is responding to the location of players bets is an attempt at game influence, - if it is done.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.